Tag Archives: ESPN

What is Z-Life?  At first glance it appears to be an ultra-hip & trendy Men's boutique that has the very best in denim, accessories and kicks, but when you look a little deeper, you quickly see it's much, much, more than that.   As the Retro Brand Retailer of the Month for May, I take that closer look in my interview with the man who puts the Zing in the Z-Life Denim Lounge, owner Adam Zuckerman.

Adam in his comfort zone.

Andy:  I love the wide selection of jeans & accessories in Z-Life, but it's the Lemon Heads and Fireballs that caught my eye.  What's up with that?

Adam:  I am an old school guy who simply wanted to have an environment in the store that would make my customers comfortable.  Having several candy jars filled with favorites from your childhood immediately gives the customer a feeling that they're in a happy place and makes the shopping experience that much more enjoyable.  More importantly, the kids love it.  We also have games for the kids to play with while their parents browse.

Andy:  Can I say brilliant?  What other nuances do you feel add to the Z-Life experience that make it stand out from other Mens boutiques?

Adam:  As people who have become regulars in the community would tell you, while I have a very low pressure sales approach, I have a very aggressive relationship approach.   In the five years we've been here, I've had the pleasure of seeing kids grow through their High School years and head off to college.  By getting to know so many families personally, I know what school this son or that daughter will be attending, and I make sure to stock my t-shirt shelves with those schools.

That is just one example that shows my customers know that I'm honestly more interested in helping them out & getting to know them and their needs, then simply closing a sale.   Retail is in my blood - It's who I am, and my customers know my dedication and passion.

Andy:  You just don't find that kind of attentiveness enough these days.  I know from my own shopping experiences that fakery and high pressure never work, and I HATE shopping.  The informal poll taken in my head presumes most men feel the way I do.   Am I right?  Since you cater mostly to men (70% Mens apparel 30% Womens), how do you handle the apathy?

Adam:  I'd say your partially right.  I prefer to say that men don't want to shop in a women's store, and women will shop anywhere.  Most men like to shop quickly, get in - get out, but are open to advice and talking about sports.  I'm a huge sports fan so it makes it easy to converse with them (and the women for that matter) whether it's what's currently happening in the world of sports, or more often than not, the good old days.  There is a huge flat screen TV in the store programmed to ESPN most of the time (I'll change to Nickelodeon for the kids, or anything else a customer might want to see) and I have several sports books and magazines that get referenced on a regular basis.  Of course the vintage Retro Brand shirts always get the conversation about sports going, which is one of the things I love about the brand.

Room with a view.

Andy:  So between your one-on-one valuable input, the old school candy, ESPN, and Retro Brand vintage shirts, suddenly shopping isn't so terrible.  Thanks for the compliment too.  What are some of the other things you love about Retro Brand?

Adam:  I promise I'm not saying this just because you're doing a story on Z-Life, but when it comes to buying product for the store, there is nothing more enjoyable then sitting down with Marc (Marc Herman, CEO of Retro Brand) and going through the treasure trove of vintage Retro Brand graphics and talking sports.  So many of the logos and graphics conjure up great sports memories of my time growing up and events that customers my age remember.  Not only do the older customers feel a positive connection with the shirts, but the younger kids are genuinely fascinated to learn what they're about as well.  Retro Brand also allows me to be very timely in the shirts I buy -  from the NCAA Final Four, to spring break, to the Stanley Cup Finals.  Buying mens denim and womens blouses may pay the bills, but not nearly as fun.

Andy:  What would you say is the most rewarding part of your job?

Adam:  As you may have guessed, it's the relationships I've been lucky enough to have fostered over the years.  I truly cherish them.  I've found a comfortable niche in a fantastic community.  Also when I hear a customer say something like "This is a great store!"

Another part of the job that's pretty rewarding is being able to get up every morning and throw on a crisp pair of plaid shorts, a Retro Brand vintage shirt, and my favorite pair of sneakers and head into the store.   That's me.  That's rewarding.

Andy:  That is awesome, and you are awesome for taking the time to speak with me today.  Thank you!

To learn more about Z-Life denim Lounge, you can visit them online here.

We highly recommend stopping in the store if you are ever in the Rye Brooke, NY area.  You know Adam and his staff will treat you right.

138B South Ridge Street.

Rye Brook, New York 10573

store phone:  914-937-5433 (life)

fax:  914-937-5434

Denim all day.

RETRO RANGER.

You think our Flyers fanatic/guest blogger from yesterday, Anthony Coppola, is happy with the way the NHL Playoffs started last night?  Maybe not with how they started, but how they finished! As you probably know by now, the Flyers overcame a 3 goal deficit and sealed the deal in overtime to stun the hometown Pens and their crowd.  WOW. In other opening action, the Kings doubled up on the Canucks, and the Predators edged out the Redwings.

With 4 more games on the slate for tonight, including the Rangers hosting the Ottowa Senators, who better to share some hockey happiness than today's guest blogger and New York Rangers fanatic (and Devils and Kings and Blackhawks...you'll see) Marc Goldsmith.  Take it away Marc....

Ah, Spring…. The smell of freshly cut grass, the crack of the bat and the Zamboni.

What?

For me, baseball does not even start until AFTER hockey season ends.  There is simply nothing like the Stanley Cup Playoffs.  Even if my team is not around to lift that majestic Cup, I still am.

I have actually held the Cup… have had the honor to meet Mike Bolt, one of its keepers and guardians.

I had the pleasure of seeing the Ducks clinch the Cup back in 2007.  I was not a Ducks fan, but there was something almost mystical about watching a team win the Stanley Cup… on home ice… and then hoist it and pass it from player to player.  It was hard not to get swept up in the spirit and joy.

I love the sport so much I follow a few teams, which confuses and confounds a lot of folks, so I find it needs explanation. I started life as a Rangers fan, going to Madison Square Garden to see Gilbert, Duguay, Esposito and the Maloney brothers.  Attending sporting events with my Dad is always a fond memory and 1994 is still one of my favorite years!  The gap to get back has been way too long, but this could be the year… knock on ice…

Then when the Devils moved to New Jersey it was easier to go to the Meadowlands, so as long as they were not playing the Rangers I could cheer for the boys in red and green.  The year was 2003 when I found myself in the parking lot of the Byrne Arena on my way into NYC to meet my brother.  The NJ Transit bus stopped there before heading into Port Authority.  It was Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals against the Anaheim Ducks, and I was so tempted to get off and scalp a ticket.  Man I should have, but I had plans to meet Dan, and so I continued on, where we watched the game in a bar.

The next day at the convention center some folks who worked for ESPN said they were at the game.  They told me how amazing it was, and how they had extra tickets they did not know what to do with.  The look I shot my wife could have stopped a charging enforcer.  I had begged her the day before to ask for tickets, but she did not want to.  GAME 7 OF THE STANLEY CUP FINALS… for a team I loved!!!!!  To me that is the ideal sporting event… the dream… and so on my wish list… a Game 7 Stanley Cup Final.

Living in Chicago took me to the old Chicago Stadium and deep into the tradition of Mikita, Hull and the Blackhawks… That logo is one of my favorites and the most iconic out of any sport.

When I moved to LA I needed a local team to follow… and being a hockey lover, I started following the Kings… Easy to do with the likes of Robitaille and Gretzky! Seeing the Rangers sweater still means more to me than any other jersey… but I do know the Kings well, having met a number of players and going to a lot of games.  There is nothing like live hockey.  It is the greatest spectator sport around.

Lord Stanley’s Cup was given for the first time in 1893, and became the championship trophy of the NHL in 1947.  It is this tradition that makes it and the sport so deep and rich.  There is simply no other prize more coveted in all of sports and the respect and love the players show for it, make it the true Holy Grail.

Original Retro Brand shows the same respect and detail for all of their NHL gear.  The tees, long sleeve pullovers and hoodies are soft, comfy and classic.  Their hats are perfectly vintage looking.  My only gripe is that I have to buy four different teams… Well, not much of a gripe for me!

The playoffs are upon us… Gear up!

Thanks for the kind words and support Marc.  And now that you've explained your sports schizophrenia, it makes perfect sense!

Marc Goldsmith is an actor, writer and true music aficionado.  If you couldn't tell, he's also a huge Original Retro Brand fan (he’s got over 65, and counting, ORB shirts in his closet!).  We highly recommend you check out his daily music blog at Marc’s Muse. http://marcsmuse.wordpress.com/

Before I leave today, here's another deal for you;  Follow us on Twitter and you'll automatically be sent a 15% OFF discount for all products on our website.  The sale ends at Midnight tonight though, so you better get your follow on!

Andy:  That's a definite life changer if I ever heard one.  Having worked for traditional media like the aforementioned LA Times, and Daily News, do you find the atmosphere or experience to be entirely different working for ESPN & CBS Sports online entities, or is it more similar than one might think?

Sean: Writing for big wigs like ESPN and CBS Sports is fun, no doubt about it.  In this day and age, there's more creative freedom than ever.  Having a bigger say, content-wise, is a plus.  It's not like it was working for the newspapers, where it was more nuts-and-bolts reporting.  Still, working in that industry for 10-plus years served me well.  I learned about journalistic integrity.  Also, if you're not first, your last, that was always a big thing at The Times and Daily News.  Newspapers were the start.  ESPN and CBS Sports, I consider a pit stop, of sorts.  No rush, mind you.  I'm content, more than happy.  The finish line is the last thing on my mind right now.

NO TIME FOR THE FINISH LINE.

Andy:  Let's go back to the starting line, then.  As a kid, did you foresee yourself becoming a sportswriter?  How'd you end up in the profession?

Sean: It's funny, as a youngster during the formative years, my mom always told me to quit watching sports and go mow the lawn on the weekends.  Front and back, mind you, and we had a decent size house so that chore was a pain in the you know where....  Anyway, I'd fight tooth and nail, anything to finish watching a particular game and not have to tend to my responsibilities.  Eventually I gave in and handled my business.  Me and Moms still share a laugh about those times.  To answer the second part of the question, I'll try to make a long story short.  I was taking journalism classes at Pierce Junior College on the outskirts of Los Angeles and met an editor from the Daily News.  I started taking stats.  Then answering phones and filing photo's.  The grunt work.  Didn't matter back then, I was just happy to be doing something that I loved.  Same thing can be said about my job today.

Andy:  Didn't Bill Simmons answer phones and run food errands for the Boston Herald in High School?  All the best sportswriters start doing the grunt work!  You know how overcrowded the blog-o-sphere and sports coverage in the media is out there.  You've managed to separate yourself and stand out.  What advice could you give to others aspiring to find a niche in this saturated situation?

Sean: Never give up.  Keep plugging away.  Regardless of how many times the door is shut in your face, stick your foot in the way before it closes and the handle is locked.  Demand another opportunity.  Make the employer call security and escort you off the premises before taking no for an answer.  Be persistent, in a tactful manner, of course.  And when given a chance, make the most of it.  Be accurate.  Double-and-triple check your facts and sources.  Don't be afraid to reach out and ask for help.  I did it, more times than I can count, to the point where it was embarrassing.  That, however, is how you learn and grow.

Andy: I wonder how many of our readers will end up in handcuffs?  Outside any run-ins with security, that really is great advice Sean!  You spend plenty of time at a keyboard and in the press box.  Alot of that time is spent wearing the Original Retro Brand.  What is it you like so much about our apparel?

Sean: Great style.  Great comfort.  I love the old school design of the gear and the fact my t-shirts feel like one of those pieces of clothing you've had forever and are not willing to part with just yet.  My friends always clown me, they're always giving me a hard time for wearing my Syracuse shirt (Sean grew up loving Cuse hoops with Derrick Coleman, Sherman Douglas & Stephen Thompson).  My response to them:  The Original Retro Brand gear is in heavy rotation these days.

Thanks for your time Sean, and good luck against Wiscy Thursday night!

Aside from ESPN & CBS, Sean also puts in work for SLAM Magazine.  Follow him on Twitter @seanceglinsky

If you’re a big fan of the Original Retro Brand, and want to be featured for an interview,  please forward a picture of yourself wearing Original Retro Brand gear, and a brief description of what you do for a living and/or what you do that you think people might find pretty interesting to ahyman@originalretrobrand.com If we like what we see, you may be contacted for an interview.  We’ll even send you an Original Retro Brand T-Shirt if we decide to post your story!

FOR UPDATES ON CONTESTS, FASHION, AND FUN FROM THE ORIGINAL RETRO BRAND,  LIKE US ON FACEBOOK AND FOLLOW US ON TWITTER.

WHAT HAPPENS UPSTATE, STAYS UPSTATE.

The Super Bowl is behind us, spring training is on the horizon, and the NHL playoffs don't kick in until the end of April.  What's a sports fan to do?  RIVALRY WEEK! College hoops is heating up as the stretch to March Madness is officially under way!  You can be in the thick of the action by taking part in our weekly "What's Your College Knowledge?" Basketball contest.  It's free, easy, fun, and you can win a $50 Original Retro Brand Gift Card just like Ted Turich of  Denver, Colorado did!

Yes, Ted picked 4 of 5 games correctly last week and found himself in a 3-way tie for 1st place with Bob Jaye of Florida, and Jesse Robinson of Idaho, both of whom also went 4 of 5, setting up the drawing to determine the winner of the Gift Card  (for the record, I came in at 3-2 bringing my season tally to a less than thrilling 9-6).  Ted was the lucky winner.  Don't feel too bad for Bob and Jesse as they have participated and won previous contests of ours before.  I will give Bob a heartfelt WAY TO GO BOB!, as he was the only person out of 30+ entries to pick Wyoming to knock off UNLV.  WAY TO GO BOB!

Before we get into the 5 games for Rivalry Week, here are the rules for those entering the contest for the first time:

1) Every Monday or Tuesday, I will post my 5 top college basketball games of the week and give you my predicted winners and why.

2) You will enter your picks for the same games (no point spreads; straight up wins & losses) in the “leave a reply/Comment” section at the end of this post no later than tip-off time for the first scheduled game.  ****ONE ENTRY PER PERSON ONLY!!****

3) Each following Monday or Tuesday I will announce which person picked the most winners, and that person will win a $50 Original Retro Brand Gift Card! In the event of a tie, all of the entries will be entered into a drawing to determine a winner.  If I beat everybody, nobody wins – this HAS never happened! It’s FREE, FUN, and that simple!

We’ll run this contest right up until the opening round for March Madness.  At that time we’ll step up our game with our 2nd annual “Bracket Ballers Challenge,” in which you’ll get the opportunity to test your picking prowess for the full bracket of 68 – $700 worth of Original Retro Brand gear will be up for grabs!  NOW TO THE GAMES FOR RIVALRY WEEK # 4!

GAME 1:  2/8 - # 12 Georgetown (18-4) @ # 2 Syracuse (23-1): Customer Bobby By requested I feature the upcoming UCONN - SU matchup, but I just couldn't resist this one (heck, the Huskies have lost 8 games this year), as it could be the last time they play if SU goes to the ACC.  The Hoyas come into the Carrier Dome with a shot at pulling within one game of the Cuse in the Big East with an upset victory.  The Beast in the East (and beyond) remains in upstate New York.  ORANGE - 68, HOYAS - 63.

GAME 2:  2/8 - # 10 DUKE (19-4) @ # 5 North Carolina (20-3): Duke will win this mammoth hoops rivalry by 1 point.  I say this based solely on info pulled from ESPN that points out this point about points:  DUKE has outscored UNC 5,858 - 5,857 over their last 75 meetings and that's good enough for me.  Get the point?  BLUE DEVILS - 78, TAR HEELS - 77.

GAME 3:  2/8 - # 7 Kansas (18-5) @ # 6 Baylor (21-2): I really like what the Bears have accomplished this year.  Unfortunately I'm thinking they will have to Bear the brunt of a very pissed off and fired up Kansas team coming off a brutal (as in choke) loss at Mizzou. JAYHAWKS - 80, BEARS - 72.

GAME 4:  2/9 - # 16 St. Mary's (22-2) @ Gonzaga (18-4): The Gaels go for the season sweep of their bitterest WCC Rival on the road.  They'll put their 11-0 conference record on the line behind standout junior Matthew Dellavedova.  Not the same intensity you'll find at a DUKE-UNC matchup, but close.  Zags play spoiler.  BULLDOGS - 77, GAELS - 72.

ZAGS SAY NO TO GAELS 11-0

GAME 5:  2/9 - Ole Miss (14-8) @ # 20 Mississippi State (18-5): It's highly unlikely that the Bulldogs will go down a second time to the Rebs on their homecourt as they look to avenge an early season defeat.  A win here, with 3 sub .500 SEC games in a row they should win before they face # 1 Kentucky, will have the Mighty Maroon in the thick of the SEC title hunt. BULLDOGS - 75, REBELS - 68.

OLE MESS FOR OLE MISS.

Those are my picks for Rivalry Week, and just for fun I'm going to pick Florida to upset the Wildcats tonight @ Rupp Arena.  It's easy to pick an upset when the game isn't officially part of the picks!  NOW LET'S SEE YOURS, AND GOOD LUCK!

FOR UPDATES ON CONTESTS, FASHION, AND FUN FROM THE ORIGINAL RETRO BRAND,  LIKE US ON FACEBOOK AND FOLLOW US ON TWITTER.

Today’s Original Retro Brand “5 Questions with…” interview features Peter Schrager.  Peter is a frequent NFL and college football contributor at FoxSports.com He covered sports and pop culture for ESPN.COM, wrote for ESPN Classic’s “Cheap Seats”, and also appears on the NFL Network, Howard101 on SiriusXM with Scott Ferrall, and Fox News.

Andy:  So many sports freaks dream of having a dream job like yours. How does one break through all the clutter and end up on FoxSports.com?

Peter: I got into all this guerrilla style.  During my senior year of college, I had a popular campus radio show with my buddy Aaron Luber, a column in the school paper, and a presence on the campus TV station. On a whim, I stood outside an ESPN SportsZone in 120 degree heat for three hours and tried out for a television show on ESPN called “ESPN Dream Job”, sort of an “American Idol” for guys and girls trying to get into the world of sports broadcasting. I wore a “Bill Clement for President” tee shirt, impressed the judges with my knowledge of Dave Krieg and Neil Lomax, and got to the final round of tryouts.  Along the way, though, I developed a relationship with the great Howie Schwab (of “Stump the Schwab” fame) at ESPN. Over the next six months, he served as my mentor, giving me career advice and guidance you couldn’t pay for.  Eventually, when ESPN.com wanted to hire a young voice for their soon-to-be launched Page 3 site, I jumped at the chance.  One thing led to another and I was writing for ESPN.com—the ultimate dream—waking up to 2,000 emails a day, and growing a readership.  I made the jump to FoxSports.com and have been contributing for them ever since (check out Peter in latest clip from this past Monday below).

Andy:  Of all the sports celebrities you have interviewed, who would you say is the most memorable and why?

Peter: I’ve met several interesting people over the years, but my favorite interview was a sit-down with Dick Enberg of CBS Sports last spring.  I’m a sucker for the sports media legends and their tales.  They’re always the best. I was like a kid sitting on his grandpa’s lap listening to Enberg talk about the early days of the NCAA Tournament and covering John Wooden in the 60s, before he was—you know, John Wooden. Getting to pick the brain of a guy like that and have him tell you all his stories over a lunch, unfiltered, is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Incredible stuff.  Of course, meeting Kevin Federline at the Penthouse Super Bowl XLI Party was a thrill, too.  Fascinating guy.

Andy:  Who are the sportswriters that you read online?

Peter: I have my RSS feeds and my favorites, for sure. I think the guys at FoxSports.com, whether it’s Ken Rosenthal in baseball, or John Czarnecki, Alex Marvez and Jay Glazer in pro football—provide some of the best inside coverage around.  Go read Jay Glazer’s article about breaking the Favre-to-the-Jets story in 2008.  Dude wrote 1,000 words on stalking Favre out in the airport from one of those massage chairs in a Brookstone. One of my favorite articles, ever.  I click refresh on ProFootballTalk.com about 500 times a day and read all of Florio and Rosenthall’s stuff there, too.  Bill Simmons went out of his way to lend me a hand when I was a young pup writing for ESPN.com. I don’t always agree with him, but his writing style, his comfort with his readers, and his pushing of the envelope—that opened doors for just about every aspiring sportswriter born after 1975.  Will Leitch is flat out nailing it over at NYMag.com; his perspective on “The Decision” won the day that next Friday.  It was the perfect column.  Growing up, it was Peter King, Dr. Z, and devouring a Sports Illustrated in one sitting when it arrived in the mailbox.

Andy:   Any NFL predictions for the upcoming season?

Peter: Summertime predictions with the NFL are ridiculous.  Do you know who I had going to the Super Bowl last year? The Bears and the Steelers. Neither made the playoffs.  Last season, six teams that didn’t make the playoffs in ’08 made it to the final twelve.  This year, I think the Cowboys host a Super Bowl in Jerry’s castle, but lose to the Ravens.  Some other predictions—the Lions and Raiders both improve dramatically, Jay Cutler has a monster year in Mike Martz’s system, and the 49ers win the NFC West with a sub .500 record.  Have you seen the rosters in the NFC West this season?  Heinous.

THANKS HONEY!

Andy:  You have been a big fan of the Original Retro Brand for a very long time.  Do you have a favorite shirt, thermal, hat or hoody?

Peter: I go way back with Original Retro.  I go back to the Distant Replays days.  I am a throwback to the throwbacks.  My favorite tee shirt I own is the Toronto Argonauts one my girlfriend got me this year for my birthday.  Though I wore an Ole Miss one, with the Rebel on it, to Ole Miss-Alabama last season and never got so many positive compliments on a piece of clothing.  Note to your readers:  The women at Ole Miss?  Yeah, they’re not ugly.

Many thanks to Peter for joining us today.  I highly recommend you check out his coverage on FoxSports.com regularly!

If you are a big fan of the Original Retro Brand, and want to be featured on “5 Questions with…” please forward a picture of yourself wearing Original Retro Brand gear, and a brief description of what you do for a living to andyphyman@gmail.com If we like what we see, you may be contacted for an interview. You don't need to be a hot shot writer like Peter to be featured - heck, we’ll send you an Original Retro Brand T-Shirt if we decide to post your story!

FOR GREAT DEALS, CONTESTS, AND FUN FROM THE ORIGINAL RETRO BRAND,  BECOME A FAN ON FACEBOOK AND FOLLOW US ON TWITTER.

An old High School buddy recently sent me a link to baldguyz.com to remind me that I am bald. I like being bald.  I can shave my own head and buy more Original Retro Brand shirts with what I save on haircuts.  I also don't have to worry about my afro getting various objects lost in it, or birds nesting in it.  The site also has a great sale on stuff for baldies, and are calling it March Baldness! I find that so clever and funny that I have to use it to tie-in to a March Madness, and famous bald basketball players blog.  Thus, behold the bald ballers & the Colleges* they played for in the TOP TEN College shirts for March Baldness:

10. Slick Watts - The NAIA All American from Xavier was beloved in Seattle with the Sonics, and credited by the NBA as the "first NBA player to turn a bald head into a fashion statement."  In 2004, ESPN ranked Watts 13th among the "coolest athletes of all time."

9. Glen rice - MOP of hair doesn't apply to Glen Rice.  The MOP that stands for Most Outstanding Player award, as the one Glen Rice won for Michigan in the 1989 Division I Men's Championship, does.

8. Shaquille O'Neill - The 2-time All-American out of LSU, left a string of the best baldies behind him in the 1995 NBA playoffs including the Bulls Michael Jordan, and the Pacers Reggie Miller, enroute to the NBA Finals for the Orlando Magic.  The streak ended there however, when the Magic ran into another famous baldie, Clyde "The Glide" Drexler of the Houston Rockets, who went on to win the crown.

7. Clyde Drexler- "Houston, we don't have a problem."  Phi Slamma Jamma. See # 8.

6. Charles Barkley - The "Round Mound of Rebound" out of Auburn, has earned all due respect via his amazing career on and off the court, and his baldness seems to add credence to the title Sir Charles (aren't lots of  bald guys called sir?).

5. Ray Allen - The former UCONN Phenom is a fan of the Original Retro Brand. You can see him close up on the "Retro Sightings" section of our website (see image # 13).

4. Gary Payton - The "Glove" got his nickname for his tenacious defense while in the NBA.  He could've received that name while in college, as he still holds the record for steals @ UTEP.

3. Jason Kidd - The CALifornia Kidd probably started losing hair back in High School where he often found himself playing against the aformentioned Gary Payton on the courts of Oakland.

2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - His name was Lew Alcindor while at UCLA, and he had a pretty major fro, but by the time he retired as the NBA's all-time leading scorer with 38,387 points, he'd nary a hair on his head.

1. Michael Jordan - Nothing will ever be finer, than His Airness from Carolina.  Best player, Best Baldness.

* Just want to clarify that not all these dudes were bald when they were in college, but ended up that way before they were done in the NBA.